Already posted. A mixed bag of reactions, really. .
defender of truth
JoinedPosts by defender of truth
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Excellent new article on Jehovah's Witnesses possibly being a ponzi scheme
by Tenacious injehovah's witnesses and the ponzi scheme.
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No more printing of WT and Awake in my country.. Shit just got real
by cognitivedizzy inguys .
a letter was just read in out kh stating that all printing of wt and awake is ceased for the coming year and we will just place tracts on fs, countries which were cared by our branch will be cared by other countries...along with this they read the new fs form and stuff about reporting links of videos wtf..lol.
i can't tell which country perhaps that will give away a lot, any one with a similar information.
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defender of truth
^^ Bearing in mind my above post, would anyone be able to ring the India branch and ask for a tour of the printing facilities?
I'd realy like to know how they would react.
If tours of the printing facilities were no longer available, that could confirm that this is true. ;)
927/1 Addevishwanathapura
Rajanukunte
BENGALURU-KAR 560 064
INDIA
+91 80-2309-2400 -
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Good article - Are Jehovah's Witnesses a religious Ponzi scheme?
by defender of truth inwww.the-newshub.com/general/are-jehovahs-witness-a-religious-ponzi-scheme
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defender of truth
@nelim
I didn't write the article. So the use of the word 'you' is incorrect.
nelim 2 hours ago
Looks like a long incoherent rant.
I am sorry you feel that way. I could see what he was getting at, although the title is not the best...
[He] announces a ponzi scheme but nowhere it is really explained.
The term 'ponzi scheme' may not be the best way of putting it
(because 'ponzi scheme' means someone taking money off someone else, telling them it will be invested and will reap financial returns later, whereas in reality the money is used for the Con-man's own personal gain and to pay off other investors who get suckered into the scheme)
... and unfortunately Witnesses, and others like yourself who are very careful and critical readers may pick on the use of that term..whilst missing the overall message. A poorly chosen title, perhaps.
What he is clearly trying to say, is that the Witnesses' false promises keep on drawing in new 'investors' (in the sense of investing time+energy), yet there will actually never be a 'pay-off' of any kind...
No Everlasting Life
No Paradise
No New World Order, complete with pet panda bears
The reality:
Millions of Witnesses working all their lives for a publishing and real estate selling company... with no tangible reward, either monetary or physical. Nothing gained now, nothing gained even in the future.
(And then you deviate into blood transfusion policy without a clear link).
He could have made it slightly clearer I guess, but it seemed clear to me.
Most people who invest in a fraudulent scheme only waste time or money.
The no-blood-transfusions policy, which is connected to the resurrection hope (the resurrection into Paradise is essentially the 'bait' or 'promised reward' for those investing in the scheme, for the purpose of his illustration), the no-blood policy not only costs time and money with a false promise attached to it...
This false promise costs lives.
To people not familiar with Witness teachings, the teaching of a resurrection, even if it's not true, may sound like a nice religious doctrine meant to give encouragement to those who have lost loved ones, and help them with the grieving process.
But for Jehovah's Witnesses the reality is much different, for 2 important reasons...
2) But the resurrection doctrine involves something even more sinister, in fact downright evil.
That is the issue of blood transfusions. Most people familiar with Witnesses know they do not accept blood transfusions. But the extent to which this doctrine is enforced is shocking. Even a child's life is not sacred enough to make an exception.
If a Witness life is at stake, and a blood transfusion is the only viable option, Witnesses will refuse, both for themselves and their children.
How could they possibly do such a thing, you may ask? Because they are taught that they will come back in the resurrection.
The same resurrection Jesus predicted 2,000 years ago and that never came.
...Further, those who accept blood transfusions risk being shunned, or disfellowshipped, which will ban them from having contact with other Witnesses, including close friends and family members.
So, no, the resurrection doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses is not just some innocent religious belief. How tragic that a doctrine about life has caused so many innocent deaths.
Maybe these quotes will help boil down what he is clearly trying to say:
Most people know what a ponzi scheme is, but here are the basics of it:
You need a scheme, you need investors who will fund this scheme, you need more investors to repay the initial investors plus interest, and then you need even more investors to repay those ones (and on and on)...
First, here is the scheme: The Jehovah's Witness leaders make many promises to their followers. They do this by taking Bible verses way out of context and applying it to themselves.
... the JW leaders are promising that they personally will provide this "wonderful paradise" for their followers.
...Today Jehovah's Witnesses make the same fake promises, and have been doing so for decades. Especially since Joseph Rutherford's discourse Millions Now Living Will Never Die given from 1918 to 1925, has the promise of everlasting life been used as a hook by JW leaders to bring in more members.
...So now you know the scheme:
Push the "future Paradise" belief at all costs, thereby enticing new members and ensuring lifelong membership for many current members.
Of course none of what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Paradise is based on any sort of reality.
But the leaders need to keep pushing these ideas to keep current members and to gain more. As more and more Witnesses start to see the truth about the religion and show themselves the door, new Witnesses are needed to keep up with the losses.
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[Regarding the real estate fraud, that he maybe didn't fully explain.]
.. Watchtower annually publishes an article about making contributions to the organization, and specifically mentions "residential property".
The articles also mention donations of "cash, jewelry, or other valuable personal property", "specifying an entity used by Jehovah’s Witnesses as the beneficiary of a life insurance policy or a retirement/pension plan", "bank accounts, certificates of deposit, or individual retirement accounts set up as a trust or made payable on death", "stocks and bonds", "salable real estate", "securities", "a legally executed will", "donations via electronic bank transfer, debit card, or credit card".
^^ The above is part of real estate fraud. (From some people's point of view).
Take people's donated money (people who have been taught that all their money is spent on furthering Jehovah's work: primarily warning the world that they must join Jehovah's organization or die, which from the point of view of us "nonbelievers" is nonsense. It is even more so nonsense to say all donated money is spent on furthering God's work, when you consider that they sometimes build luxury accommodations with gyms, basketball courts and swimming pools, but that is another topic. *see footnote*), then use the donated money and free labour of the deluded and deceived 'investors', in order to build new properties that can be then sold off, or to purchase buildings that can be later sold for a big profit.
They can sell off some elderly sisters house that she left to the organization, and use the money to buy even more property to be sold at a profit.
Or the donated money will be used to bring in new 'investors' by means of the publications used in the preaching work.
(I appreciate that the link to a ponzi scheme is somewhat tenuous, I just found the overall concept interesting).
And here is the key point to me, the one that I feel made reading the 'incoherent rant' worthwhile.
Perhaps you would at least agree with this point:
However you want to refer to this, real estate fraud, ponzi scheme, or whatever, ultimately it boils down to this:
The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses making false promises in exchange for real money, real time spent, real energy spent, real donations of property, real lives lost, real family members being shunned, and little to no accountability from the authorities or anyone else.
* footnote
Please see the following pages:
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/watchtower-recruits-volunteer-workforce-for-warwick-hq-construction-project
www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/208345/walkill-bethel-recreational-facility?page=1
(read all the pages of this last link)
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Watch Tower's ridiculous Defence in Otuo v Morley and Watch Tower
by akromo inin the high court of justice queen’s bench division .
frank kofi otuo .
jonathan david morley .
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defender of truth
I think if the solicitor can establish...etc
@Skedaddle - I'm not totally certain, but I think that Mr Otuo is representing himself in this.
Akromo, am I right in saying this?
Also, akromo, is there any way we can get in touch with Mr Otuo, at least to send our best wishes if nothing else?
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The Particulars of Claim in Otuo v Morley and Watch Tower
by akromo inin the high court of justice claimno: hq14d02898 .
queens bench division.
1. this is a claim in slander against the first and second defendant..
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defender of truth
@Skedaddle
That is an interesting story. I had no idea there were similar cases that have been won. Thanks for sharing that. :)
This case could be landmark - human rights act is up in two sections.
Here is the Watchtower's response to that, from the other thread.
Paragraph 22 of the Amended Particulars of Claim is denied.
The European Convention of Human Rights is not directly binding on the Defendants. In any event, even if the Claimant could establish that the words complained of constituted actionable slander and were not spoken on an occasion protected by qualified privilege, which is denied, given the context in which the words complained of were spoken,
the words spoken could not and did not interfere with the Claimant’s right to respect for his private and family life.
53.Paragraph 26 of the Re-Amended Particulars of Claim is denied.
The European Convention of Human Rights is not directly binding on the Defendants. Furthermore, the Claimant’s claim under Article 9 appears to arise in relation to his disfellowshipping which is not the subject of this claim and is in any event non-justiciable before the secular court.
The Defendants aver that Article 9 in conjunction with Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights protects the right to determine the membership of a religious community as held by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human Rights in Sindicatul “Păstorul cel Bun” v. Romania (no. 2330/09, 136, 137, 165, 9 July 2013).
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Good article - Are Jehovah's Witnesses a religious Ponzi scheme?
by defender of truth inwww.the-newshub.com/general/are-jehovahs-witness-a-religious-ponzi-scheme
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Watch Tower's ridiculous Defence in Otuo v Morley and Watch Tower
by akromo inin the high court of justice queen’s bench division .
frank kofi otuo .
jonathan david morley .
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defender of truth
Thank you for posting this.
Is there anywhere online that we can read all of this, and get updates on the case?
Paragraph 21 of the Re-Amended Particulars of Claim is denied that the Defendants have “barred” any members of the Claimant’s family from seeing him.
This was to be expected, really.
How can you hold the organization responsible legally, when the decision to shun is, from a legal standpoint, an individual decision?...
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Could the Independent Inquiry in England and Wales expose jw.org's child abuse failures? And how can we help?
by defender of truth inwith all the talk about the org's policies and failures regarding child sexual abuse being publically exposed in australia, i thought that it may be a good time to highlight this... i apologise if this has already been discussed, but on the 9th of july the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse in england and wales was opened.
here is some information regarding it's aims.. "about the inquiry.
the inquiry offers an unprecedented opportunity to examine the extent to which institutions and organisations in england and wales have taken seriously their responsibility to protect children.. the inquiry will investigate a wide range of institutions including:.
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defender of truth
@Anyone who shared their story with the Independent Inquiry, just a reminder that the Charity Commission would like to hear your story as well.
"The commission’s inquiry into how Watch Tower safeguards children and adults at risk continues. The commission is committed to robustly investigating allegations that charities do not have adequate safeguarding policies and practices. It encourages people who have been affected by safeguarding in congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses in England and Wales to make contact with the inquiry lead investigator Jonathan Sanders at
Members of the public can contact the commission with any safeguarding or other concerns about charities via Complain about a charity."
www.gov.uk/government/news/court-of-appeal-gives-judgment-in-court-case-by-jehovahs-witness-charity
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Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't: Religious Shunning and the free exercise clause
by defender of truth inthe following link is to a pdf file found on the penn law legal scholarship repository website.. " the penn law legal scholarship repository is the institutional repository of the university of pennsylvania law school.
its purpose is to collect and preserve the scholarly output of penn law.
http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/.
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defender of truth
It was written nearly 30 years ago, but here is the author, should anyone wish to contact him.
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"Author: Justin K. MillerPublication: University of Pennsylvania Law Review
Date: 11/1988 "
www.scholarship.law.upenn.edu/penn_law_review/vol137/iss1/6/
"Justin graduated from the University of Pennsylvania Law School, cum laude, in 1989, where he was a Comment Editor for the University of Pennsylvania Law Review and Order of the Coif. He received a B.A., magna cm laude, from the University of Pennsylvania in 1983."
www.larssonlaw.com/team/attorneys/justin-k-miller/ -
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TheAtlantic.com - Disowning a Daughter Over a Church
by defender of truth ina reader from south carolina has a heartbreaking story:" i am 31 years old.
i was raised in a strict bi-cultural (af-american and nigerian) jehovah’s witness family, one of six children.
though it’s generally looked down upon for jws to attend liberal arts universities (vocational schools are recommended), i somehow convinced my parents to allow me to go to university and major in theater (!!
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defender of truth
The article has been updated, with more stories from disfellowshipped Jw's.
www.theatlantic.com/notes/all/2016/03/choosing-your-religion/475164/#note-477207